Importance of a honemeister

A recurring theme that you will see here is the importance of having your first blade or two, at least, honed by one of the board's honemeisters.
A primary reason is that the beginner needs to know what "shave ready" feels like in order to judge whether a blade is properly honed.

A recent experience of mine may help to illustrate why. A short time ago I received a brand spankin new Wacker INOX that I paid a bit extra for to have it sent already honed.

Now the INOX steel is supposed to be harder than carbon steel but perhaps not quite as hard as stainless. The advantage to me is that the salt air on my boat would be less of a concern for corrosion.

Anyway, I received the blade and tried my first shave. Yucky pew, it grabbed and yanked all over the place. Obviously the blade needed more honing. How do I know - well because my first blades were honed by SRP members and I know how its supposed to feel.

Well after about 30 strokes on a spyderco ultra fine hone and about 40 passes on the pasted strop over several days, it feels like it should - a smooth glide.

So - a new razor from a reputable vendor - honing service added is no guarantee. If I were completely new I might have given up on straights. I suspect that whoever honed it did not take into account the harder steel. Most of the honemeisters here would have tried shaving with it themselves and would have caught the difference. Thus ends my message.

Good luck to all of you

You should be aware that most grades of stainless used for cutlery (e.g. 440 stainless) are actually less hard than carbon steel. INOX is just a European term for stainless steel (it's short for INOXdable. There are seveal types of stainless, but the most common used for edged tools are the martesitic grades (type 400). These contain some carbon, are magnetic and can be heat hardened (though not as hard as high carbon steel or high carbon steel alloys.

No I wasn't aware of that. However, based upon the threads stainless razors can be a bear to sharpen. In this case for the INOX blade, the website states that they are tougher to get a good edge on compared to carbon steel. On the other hand, they also state that with a bit of care they will take a wicked edge that lasts. We'll see. :rolleyes:

Of course the main point of the story is the importance of learning on a truly shave ready razor to be able to judge when it is properly honed.

I've experienced the same thing you have, although, not from the vendor you bought yours from. It is very frustrating! If you inquire about what happened (or didn't happen), usually you will get, "Send it back and I'll hone it (again or rehone??)". I don't want to go that, repackaging and mailing it out, and waiting another 3 weeks +. I just want what I payed for in the first place. and, of course, if you're a newbee (and you're not), your credability is in question: What did he do to it? The first one is poor stropping, of course. Then poor shaving technique, poor lathering, etc...

Sorry this happened. I don't buy blades that much anymore, but when and if I do, I'll hone them up myself. I have bought a few from members here that were supposed to have been "shave ready", although, IMO, the edges were not up to my standards.

In this case, you paid for the service and didn't get it. :(

You need to contact the vendor. Maybe it was an honest mistake. - of course you did rehone it. No sense sending it back now. I guess this will have to be one of those "live and learn" kind of deals, but you should let your vendor know what happened, so maybe it wont happen to someone else in the future. :shrug:

Regards,

Steve

Good idea Steve,

I wasn't going to make a big deal out of it but your point that need to be a bit more careful is a good one.

I started this to help newbies but fccexpert has given me some pretty interesting info. For example, I wondered what INOX stood for.

Just when you think you have the bases covered ya learn something new. :)

All good points, the real problem is how do you define shave ready?
a blade that shaves well for one member might not be sharp enough for another, and too sharp for someone else's tastes...

The only true test is to shave with it, but like I said if your hair is coarser than mine, or your prep is different... :shrug:

I can't come up with a definitive benchmark of what is shave ready for everybody, can you?

I've even had a couple of my razors honed by "the experts" and the results varied greatly between them.

We all learn to hone a razor so that if feels right on our own face.

I do agree though that if learning to shave, or to hone for yourself... a properly hand honed razor is an invaluable tool to have in your arsenal.

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Originally Posted by zepplin

I've experienced the same thing you have, although, not from the vendor you bought yours from. It is very frustrating! If you inquire about what happened (or didn't happen), usually you will get, "Send it back and I'll hone it (again or rehone??)". I don't want to go that, repackaging and mailing it out, and waiting another 3 weeks +. I just want what I payed for in the first place. and, of course, if you're a newbee (and you're not), your credability is in question: What did he do to it? The first one is poor stropping, of course. Then poor shaving technique, poor lathering, etc...

Sorry this happened. I don't buy blades that much anymore, but when and if I do, I'll hone them up myself. I have bought a few from members here that were supposed to have been "shave ready", although, IMO, the edges were not up to my standards.

In this case, you paid for the service and didn't get it. :(

You need to contact the vendor. Maybe it was an honest mistake. - of course you did rehone it. No sense sending it back now. I guess this will have to be one of those "live and learn" kind of deals, but you should let your vendor know what happened, so maybe it wont happen to someone else in the future. :shrug:

Regards,

Steve

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I've looked at this post a couple of times today. I think I'll respond tomorrow when I'm sure it will be a more civil post.

Thanks,

Lynn

I tend to agree with much of Mike's post above. Just what is "shave ready" anyway? I was thinking about this tonight.
My razor isn't shave ready until I've stropped it just before shaving. It seems that I've read several posts by newbies disapointed in their shave with a razor prepped by a "honemeister."

While said razor may in fact be "shave ready" for someone with a bit of experience, it may just be that the new user is not quite shave ready.

Just a thought.


Scott

My classic INOX story is that I have a Fritz Bracht pre WWII Dovo INOX #41. It would sharpen, strop up but not give a good shave. At the Texas I talk to John Crowley and he recommending sending to Texas Knife Makers Supply for cryogenic hardening. I did, it cost $4.00 plus shipping. It did the trick. It shaves like a champ now.

This is an example of not all razors are created equal. Not all razors will hone up to shave a fly's bottom as it wing by. I've two razors identical models one was far superior to the other and I honed them at the same time. It doesn't matter how long you have been honing some razors don't cooperate.

I'm going to throw something in here tonight. I received a TI 1040 6/8 Silver Steel Stamina from Classic this afternoon. It was to replace one I had returned. With all the bad press TI has received lately, inspected the razor very closely. The box was sealed. When I opened I noticed immediately that the finish on the scales was far superior to the first one. The pins and all were as they should be. The real surprise was when I checked the edge. I was expecting to have to hone it as it was straight out of the box. To my surprise and delight it is shave ready. It's sharp! The edge is perfect! I'm tomorrow morning I'm going to just strop and shave. This is the very first time any new razor I have purchased has even come close to what I would consider shave ready just trying it out of the box. I honed four other razors this evening for customers so I am very picky about what I call shave ready. What a treat. I'll let yaw'll know how it goes tomorrow. :y

Importance of a honemeister...

There's an interesting trick that honemeisters do. Well, maybe not a trick but they all do it or guarantee it to be there. They all set a bevel. To my (inexperienced, young, naive, etc.) mind, the bevel is a baseline for the cutting edge. (You can read more into it HERE.) Without a bevel you might as well be shaving with a warped razor.

Another thing that true honemeisters tend to do is provide a guarantee. They understand that things happen between a razor leaving their hands and reaching your face. Their fault? Probably not as likely as the recipient's but the chance is still there. I've seen increasing frequency in shave-ready guarantees. If the razor isn't shave-sharp you can just send it back and they'll re-examine what needs to be done. Does this take time? Absolutely. Is it worth it? Double-absolutely.

It is essential in the learning curve of straight shaving that you first know what shave-ready is. It's your benchmark for how razors should shave and tends to be the shave by which you judge all the ones to follow (if you don't give up from a poor first experience). Second, when you send a razor back, you're telling an experienced shaver that something went wrong somewhere. The honemeister may examine their own methods or look over the razor and determine if it was something from the other end. From that, adjustments in the processes between hone and face can be made and learning can occur.

Absolutely true... the first step is to make sure it has a bevel. if in doubt or if you have any problems getting it sharp, that's the solution 80 to 90 % of the time.

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Originally Posted by BrianB

Importance of a honemeister...

There's an interesting trick that honemeisters do. Well, maybe not a trick but they all do it or guarantee it to be there. They all set a bevel. To my (inexperienced, young, naive, etc.) mind, the bevel is a baseline for the cutting edge. (You can read more into it HERE.) Without a bevel you might as well be shaving with a warped razor.

Another thing that true honemeisters tend to do is provide a guarantee. They understand that things happen between a razor leaving their hands and reaching your face. Their fault? Probably not as likely as the recipient's but the chance is still there. I've seen increasing frequency in shave-ready guarantees. If the razor isn't shave-sharp you can just send it back and they'll re-examine what needs to be done. Does this take time? Absolutely. Is it worth it? Double-absolutely.

It is essential in the learning curve of straight shaving that you first know what shave-ready is. It's your benchmark for how razors should shave and tends to be the shave by which you judge all the ones to follow (if you don't give up from a poor first experience). Second, when you send a razor back, you're telling an experienced shaver that something went wrong somewhere. The honemeister may examine their own methods or look over the razor and determine if it was something from the other end. From that, adjustments in the processes between hone and face can be made and learning can occur.

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The other thing every real honemeister is going to do is to actually put their own face on the line and shave with it. It may not be more than a little bit of cheek and jaw line, but if it can't shave the honemeister (comfortably), it isn't shave ready. Lynn has taught us that one...:bow the only true test is to shave with it.

I have a full shave with the blade (if there is only 1) and if I have received more than 1 razor off the same customer, then I will use both razors during my shave to ensure that they go back asap.

I will shave one side of my face with one and the other side of my face with the other. This ensures that I am testing both razors on all of the tough areas (I consider on my face) and that it goes back out proper sharp.

I have not had one complaint out of the hundreds I have honed and if I did then I would question the recipients stropping upon inspecting the blade once again.

Scales that dont centre properly and touch the sides are a nightmare and I tend to take extra care when shipping these kind back. As I feel there is a chance of these 'turning' the a part of the edge in transit.

As a special note, I would say this to all who are thinking of sending their razors out to be honed. Don't even consider it if your stropping isn't up to par as you will only undo the work that has been done on the razor.

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Originally Posted by poona

I have a full shave with the blade (if there is only 1) and if I have received more than 1 razor off the same customer, then I will use both razors during my shave to ensure that they go back asap.

I will shave one side of my face with one and the other side of my face with the other. This ensures that I am testing both razors on all of the tough areas (I consider on my face) and that it goes back out proper sharp.

I have not had one complaint out of the hundreds I have honed and if I did then I would question the recipients stropping upon inspecting the blade once again.

Scales that dont centre properly and touch the sides are a nightmare and I tend to take extra care when shipping these kind back. As I feel there is a chance of these 'turning' the a part of the edge in transit.

As a special note, I would say this to all who are thinking of sending their razors out to be honed. Don't even consider it if your stropping isn't up to par as you will only undo the work that has been done on the razor.

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I won't go as far a say get your honing skills up to par before you send your razor to a honemeister. I offer the edge warranty especially to newbs. I usually state that I specifically offer this warranty so when, not if, they roll the edge they can get back in shape for just the price of shipping both ways. I get a few that take me up on the warranty and that's just fine, that's why I offer it. I know it won't take me long to hone it back because all the hard work is already done. I used to test shave every razor. If I did that now, I wouldn't get to use my own stable and that just wouldn't do. Those of us that hone a lot of razors on a regular basis, regular basis being several every week, know from our own tests that we know when a razor is ready or not.

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Originally Posted by Kenrup

I'm going to throw something in here tonight. I received a TI 1040 6/8 Silver Steel Stamina from Classic this afternoon. It was to replace one I had returned. With all the bad press TI has received lately, inspected the razor very closely. The box was sealed. When I opened I noticed immediately that the finish on the scales was far superior to the first one. The pins and all were as they should be. The real surprise was when I checked the edge. I was expecting to have to hone it as it was straight out of the box. To my surprise and delight it is shave ready. It's sharp! The edge is perfect! I'm tomorrow morning I'm going to just strop and shave. This is the very first time any new razor I have purchased has even come close to what I would consider shave ready just trying it out of the box. I honed four other razors this evening for customers so I am very picky about what I call shave ready. What a treat. I'll let yaw'll know how it goes tomorrow. :y

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Follow up: What a joy to actually shave with a razor that is really shave ready out of the box! This TI shaved the way you would think a TI should shave. It only took about eight months to get it right. It would be terrific if this would be TI's normal quality razor. Hopefully they are getting back up to quality.

I don't call a razor shave ready unless it will shave my chin easily. I also think some razors cannot be sharpened as well as others.

bj

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Originally Posted by Kenrup

I won't go as far a say get your honing skills up to par before you send your razor to a honemeister. I offer the edge warranty especially to newbs. I usually state that I specifically offer this warranty so when, not if, they roll the edge they can get back in shape for just the price of shipping both ways. I get a few that take me up on the warranty and that's just fine, that's why I offer it. I know it won't take me long to hone it back because all the hard work is already done. I used to test shave every razor. If I did that now, I wouldn't get to use my own stable and that just wouldn't do. Those of us that hone a lot of razors on a regular basis, regular basis being several every week, know from our own tests that we know when a razor is ready or not.

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You mis-quoted me "I won't go as far a say get your honing skills up to par".

I said "I won't go as far a say get your stropping skills up to par

Although I think you meant to say stropping?

:D

another thing to note here is personal preference. some people enjoy the feel of an edge off an 8k, other 12k, other coticule, other 30k, others pastes. every person likes a different feel. add on top of that every person has different hair thickness.

there are so many variables that go into it that no 2 razors will be the same and no 2 people will feel the same from the exact same razor.

i think that a honemeister gives you a blade that feels good to his personal shave. that doesn't exactly mean it will be 100% perfect for your shave.

~J

just goes to show, if you ask 10 different honemeisters a question you will get 10 different answers... but they will all say the same thing :D

getting back to the initial issue and forgetting about feel, smoothness, and what paste to use...
The biggest reason to get a razor honed by an expert is sharpness.
before shaving with a straight, I didn't know what sharp really meant.
Sure I could sharpen my pocket knife to a point where nobody wanted to use it... it really was scary sharp, and would cut to the bone in an instant.
but it was far from shave ready or razor sharp. An inexperienced shaver may believe that sharp in knife terms means shave ready...
It's then that a honemeister is needed to show them how sharp a razor needs to and/or can be.

As for the not quite shave ready Wacker... We're all human, it could have been a mistake in the honing, the test shave, the packing, shipping, even user error can't be ruled out... It's unfortunate, and had you contacted the honemeister, I'm certain he would have done everything in his power to make it right.
I purchased my first honemeister honed razor from the same vendor, a 7/8 Froidur, and it arrived shave ready. His customer service was excellent, and he was even happy to share some honing tips with me.

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Originally Posted by poona

You mis-quoted me "I won't go as far a say get your honing skills up to par".

I said "I won't go as far a say get your stropping skills up to par

Although I think you meant to say stropping?

:D

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:o Ah yep, good catch.